0

stuttered output for Sanyo projectors but not Infocus

jmuse

January 15, 2010 22:38

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I'm new to BrightSign devices and recently purchased a few HD410s. I'm working with SD video in Final Cut Pro, creating mv2's (with extensions mpg) using Compressor MPEG-2 Transport stream Settings with NTSC 29.97 and 4:3 aspect ratio.

I come out of the HD410 with a VGA cable and into a video projector.

The problem: I have stuttered playback of a test video (rolling disk created with motion tabs) when playing back through Sanyo video projectors but smooth playback with pushing to an Infocus projector or an Acer display. The only obvious difference: the Infocus tells me that it's set for SVGA and the Sanyo's for XGA.

Infocus In24 (SVGA) works well
Acer AL1914 (1,280 x 1,024 native resolution) works well
Sanyo PLC-SU25 (XGA) doesn't work
Sanyo PLC-XU48 (XGA) doesn't work

Any thoughts? Questions? I need these Sanyo's to work.

j

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29 comments

• 0
  
  RokuLyndon January 16, 2010 06:59

  
  
  What's resolution is the Brightsign set to use for playback? What's selected in the Brighatuthor project, or in your playlist.
  
  
  
  If your content is 29.97, then it will look best on outputs that use 60 as the refresh rate, since that's close to a multiple of 29.97. But, the same content wouldn't look as good if the refresh rate is 75.
  
  
  
  That might be what's happening here. It could also be that the resolution we're outputting to the sanyo isn't a resolution it likes, so you get poor results.
  
  
  
  So, we should try setting the video output to different resolutions and see if one setting works better on the sanyo's.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 16, 2010 07:35

  
  
  Sorry for the newbie question: how do I set the resolution of the BrightSign for playback?  I simply upload the .mpg file to an otherwise empty card, put the card in the BrightSign, and power up.
  
  
  
  I'll check the refresh rate; this sounds promising.  But: a., do you mean I should output my video from compressor with different fps, or set the BrightSign to output this fcp to match the projector?  And b., can I typically adjust the refresh on a video projector?
  
  
  
  Thanks.
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 16, 2010 09:58

  
  
  Here's what I've learned.
  
  
  
  A.  when I plug in the brightsign to the Sanyo PLC-SU25 I have two choices for "System": either XGA 3 or MAC 19.  
  
  
  
  B. the spec sheet for the projector tells me "Scanning Frequency H 15-80kHz; V 50-100Hz" but I don't know how these variations are toggled.
  
  
  
  C. It's resolution too is SVGA (800 x 600) but it says it's compatible with SXGA, XGA, SVGA, VGA.  
  
  
  
  Given these parameters, what should I do?
  
  
  
  Thanks.
  
• 0
  
  RokuLyndon January 16, 2010 12:40

  
  
  Please download BrightAuthor from our website, <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.brightsign.biz/support">www.brightsign.biz/support</a><!-- w -->. Even better,  you can download the quickstart kit which includes brightauthor, sample video, and sample project files.
  
  
  
  You can use it to create a playlist, and set the resolution.
  
  
  
  If you just put a file on a flash card, the unit queries the project to find a good resolution to use so there's no way of knowing for sure what resolution they settled on.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 16, 2010 13:27

  
  
  Hi.  That link doesn't work, but BrightAuthor's for PC, yes?  I have a Mac.
  
  
  
  I thought refresh and fps were issues, not resolution.  
  
  
  
  Other tips?
  
• 0
  
  RokuLyndon January 16, 2010 14:35

  
  
  There was an extra period in the link. Yes, BrightAuthor is for windows. If you had a windows emulator on your mac you could run it.
  
  
  
  Ok, then you need to use the old playlist format. Create a text file using textEdit on your mac, and name autoplay.bsp. Please make sure text edit is set to save as plain text. You can do this under the preferences pane. SEt it to plain text, windows latin 1.
  
  
  
  In your autoplay.bsp file please add, you can list each file you want to play on a separate line and you can list the video mode in this manner:
  
  
  
  videomode 1024x768x75p
  
  
  
  or
  
  
  
  videomode 800x600x75p
  
  
  
  and, then you can add file names. So, a playlist might look like:
  
  
  
  
  
  videomode 800x600x75p
  
  video1.mpg
  
  video2.mpg
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  With that said, the resolution you choose has a refresh rate. The two I listed above are 75hz. So, a video with a 25 or 50 fps would look best, and a video with 29.97 fps might look jerky.
  
  
  
  There's also 640x480x60p, which might be what the brightsign was selecting automatically, depending on how the projects responded to the edid query.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 16, 2010 23:21

  
  
  Thanks.  I'll try this asap.
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 18, 2010 01:52

  
  
  A few things:
  
  
  
  A: nothing is working yet: I've tried 50 fps and 25 fpc on 720p and there's no change: jerky playback on the Sanyos.
  
  
  
  B: I'm also confused by what you're asking me to do.  Does my video clip have to match the videomode you want me to set?  Or does the videomode upscale my footage in a particular way?  My fcp project settings are NTSC DV (3:2) with Pixel Aspect Ratio NTSC CCIR 601, at 29.97 fps in progressive scan mode.  Do I need to create a sequence with a new editing timebase in fcp?
  
  
  
  C: I'm using an HD410 with firmware v 3.1.46.  Does the following apply to me:
  
  
  
  

  With firmware version 3.1.x and higher, the compact models support the following playback formats:
  
  1. Playback of MPEG2 transport streams, using the .ts file extension.
  2. Playback of MPEG1 System Streams and MPEG2 Program Streams, using .vob or .mpg extensions
  3. Playback of H.264 Transport Streams, using .ts extension.

  
  
  
  
  If so, I can't get .ts files to work at all.  Elementary streams and transport streams work with .mpg.
  
  
  
  D. Is there a convention for naming files?  Compressor creates file names with spaces in them.  Is this ok?
  
  
  
  Sorry this is so long, but I'm panicking.
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 18, 2010 23:37

  
  
  Still working on it.  800x600x75p will launch correctly.  800x600x60p will not launch at all, on either the Sanyo or the Acer.  Stuttering remains in the 75p mode on the Sanyo, while the Acer is crisp, clear, and smooth.
  
  
  
  Why won't 60p work?  And why does 75p give me relatively smooth playback on the Acer but not the Sanyo?
  
  
  
  Parenthetical note: I burned a DVD using iDVD and played it side by side (S-video out from a Sony) with the BrightSign and while the BrightSign was crisper and cleaner on the Sanyo, the DVD playback was smoother.
  
• 0
  
  Dick Trump January 19, 2010 05:59

  
  
  When you say "stuttering", do you actually seem to get frames frozen for more than 2 successive frames?  If so, I wouldn't expect that to be a refresh rate problem unless the projector just can't handle the rate.  Even then, I would expect loss of sync, not stuttering as you describe.
  
  
  
  I'm a dealer, not Roku support but have a suggestion for you.  If you have a distribution amplifier available, try sending the output to both the Sanyo and the Infocus or Acer display at the same time.  If you see the stuttering on the Sanyo but not the other device, I think the Sanyo may have a problem that can't be fixed by settings on the Brightsign.
  
  
  
  If they both start acting the same, it is a mode problem within the Brightsign and you need to figure out what mode is working on the Infocus.  Most projectors will report the active video mode somewhere on their menu.
  
  
  
  I use Eiki projectors very heavily which are based on the Sanyo engines and I've never seen that behavior even though I suspect I've had all kinds of refresh rates thrown at them.  In any case, I'd stick with 1024x768x60p in your situation.  According to the UserGuide, they don't even support SVGA (800x600) at any refresh rate.
  
  
  
  Dick
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 19, 2010 07:15

  
  
  Hi, Dick.  Thanks so much for your contribution here.  No, the stuttering is pronounced but it looks like dropped frames every second or so rather than a 2 frame hick-up.  Sadly, I don't have a distribution amp, so I can't run that test.  But I do have 5 different displays:
  
  
  
  Infocus In24 (SVGA): works well
  
  Sanyo PLC-SU25 (native SVGA but the system sees XGA3): stuttering
  
  Sanyo PLC-XU48 (native XGA): stuttering
  
  Epson EMP-X5: major stuttering, just awful!
  
  Acer AL1914: best
  
  
  
  I will likely just live with this as deadlines loom.  And it's my work, I'm not working for someone else, I'll just have to answer for it.
  
  
  
  But now for a dumb question: how do export at 1024x768x60p?  FCP and Compressor give me options for 720p and for NTSC but not for XGA resolutions.
  
  
  
  And even if I could export 1024x768x60p, the User Guide (pg 28) tells me that only two streams are available:
  
  
  
  • 1024x768x75p
  
  • 1360x768x60p
  
  
  
  And upscaling a 720x480x30 clip only to downscale it doesn't appear advised.
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  RokuLyndon January 19, 2010 15:21

  
  
  jmuse,
  
  
  
  Can you email me at <!-- e --><a href="mailto:support@brightsign.biz">support@brightsign.biz</a><!-- e -->, and I can give you a call? 1024 @60 isn't supported. Neither is 800x600 @ 60.
  
  
  
  Did you create a playlist? or, are you just copying videos to the flash card?
  
  
  
  The brightsign will scale the video it's playing, but some settings are more complimentary than others.
  
  
  
  So, if your frame rate is 25fps, it will scale better at 50hz or 75hz. If your frame rate is 29.97 or 30fps, then it will look better at 60hz.
  
  
  
  If your content is interlaced, it will look better on an interlaced output.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 20, 2010 03:06

  
  
  I emailed you Lyndon: thanks for the offer.  
  
  
  
  

  1024 @60 isn't supported. Neither is 800x600 @ 60.

  
  
  I understand.  These didn't work when I included a videomode.
  

  
  Did you create a playlist? or, are you just copying videos to the flash card?

  
  
  
  
  I tried to create a playlist to set videomode, but as  this didn't make a difference with some (1024x768x75p) and didn't work with others (60p).
  
  
  
  My frame rate is 29.97, progressive.  And the devices are LCD displays: projectors and a desktop flat panel display, the Acer.
  
  
  
  Parenthetically: a., does GOP structure and size make a difference (compressor settings)?  b., does the BrightSign treat .ts and .mpg files differently?  Which is best?  And c., with elementary streams (MPEG-2 wth no audio) I don't get a clean loop; but a freeze frame at the end of the video.  Thoughts?
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 20, 2010 03:29

  
  
  For those of you wanting to play along at home, here's a link to 5 clips that I've just made, each with a different setting.  
  
  
  
  Some play at double speed: i.e., this 14 second clip plays as though it were 7 seconds long, likely because I exported at 29.97?  But they all stutter on my projectors and none loop cleanly.
  
  
  
  <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.finleymuse.com/wp-content/uploads/Alrdich/5TextCrawls.zip">http://www.finleymuse.com/wp-content/up ... Crawls.zip</a><!-- m -->
  
  
  
  textcrawl.1.ts is 224 MPEG-2, 720 × 480, 4:3, 29.97 fps, 20.00 Mbps, lower field first
  
  textcrawl.2.ts is 224 MPEG-2, 720 × 480, 4:3, 29.97 fps, 20.00 Mbps, progressive
  
  textcrawl.3.ts is 224 MPEG-2, 1280 × 720, 4:3, 59.94 fps, 20.00 Mbps, progressive
  
  textcrawl.4.ts is 4096 MPEG-2, 720 × 480, 4:3, 29.97 fps, 20.00 Mbps, progressive
  
  textcrawl.5.ts is 224 MPEG-2, 720 × 480, 4:3, 29.97 fps, 15.00 Mbps, progressive
  
  
  
  If anyone can see something here that I can't, please let me know.  All suggestions welcome.
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  RokuLyndon January 20, 2010 08:44

  
  
  John,
  
  
  
  I was talking to someone else about this problem, and I'd like you to do a test. Please create a video at 25fps, progressive, and see how it plays on the projector.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 20, 2010 09:14

  
  
  Will do.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 20, 2010 09:33

  
  
  Worst yet!  I selected PAL 25 4:3 in compressor, which was the only way to get 25fps.  
  
  
  
  MPEG Streamclip gives me this info on the new clip:
  
  4096 MPEG-2, 720 × 576, 4:3, 25 fps, 20.00 Mbps, progressive.
  
  
  
  Other ideas?
  
  
  
  k
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 20, 2010 09:59

  
  
  I tried two more:
  
  
  
  4096 MPEG-2, 720 × 480, 4:3, 23.976 fps, 20.00 Mbps, progressive
  
  4096 MPEG-2, 1280 × 720, 4:3, 25 fps, 20.00 Mbps, progressive
  
  
  
  Still bad.
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  Dick Trump January 20, 2010 10:11

  
  
  FYI, I downloaded your files and played them with no scripting - no videomode setting (letting it set automatically) connected HDMI to a Samsung 46" 1366x768 LCD panel.  #3 was the only one that seemed to have significant problems.  All others were fairly smooth, although there was some "rippling" effect which I would see as normal for this type of video being mapped to bitmapped display.  By rippling, I mean that on some frames, a character would seem to get fatter by a single pixel, while on the next frame it would drop back to normal width.
  
  
  
  That was pretty subtle on 1,2,4 & 5 while #3 was decidedly jerky.  I don't believe any of them played at double speed.  This is on an HD1010.
  
  
  
  I'll pull out one of our Eiki projectors (aka Sanyo) tomorrow to see if that is dramatically different.  I'll also try connected to the Samsung via VGA which is probably how you are connecting to your projectors.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 20, 2010 10:14

  
  
  Thanks, DTrump.  You're a god.
  
• 0
  
  Dick Trump January 21, 2010 06:36

  
  
  John
  
  
  
  I thought you might be interested in some observations on your videos.  I haven't hauled out a projector yet but have two flat screens in my office that I can view things on - either VGA or DVI.  Both are Samsung, one a 460UX 46", the other a 19" computer monitor, both are 1360x768 resolution.  I have a 22" on my desktop that is 1920x1080 but I haven't tried that yet.
  
  
  
  Again, letting the BS player set the video mode automatically, the 46" connected HDMI/DVI plays all cuts pretty much at the normal speed but with #3 stuttering badly.  #4 plays the smoothest with the other 3 not quite as good.  When I connect the same monitor VGA, 1,2 and 5 play at double speed.  3 & 4 play at normal speed but 4 is smoother than 3.
  
  
  
  The 19" behaves the same way on both HDMI & VGA inputs, acting like the VGA on the 46" - 3 files playing double speed.
  
  
  
  I believe the 46" actually forces a different mode when using the DVI input but unfortunately, it doesn't report any meaningful information.  If I had a DVI or HDMI DA, I'd try to see what the difference is based on EDID info from one or the other monitor.  I do have a VGA DA, but since both monitors act the same, I don't think I'd get any meaningful info that way.  I might still pull out a projector, but I suspect I might see the same thing I'm seeing on the small monitor.
  
  
  
  In any case, this is showing us that there is considerable difference in performance of the BS dependent on the encoding AND the attached device.
  
  
  
  Dick
  
• 0
  
  RokuLyndon January 21, 2010 07:14

  
  
  What program did you say you were using for encoding?
  
  
  
  There's a bug with support for mpeg elementary streams. Those files playback faster than normal speed depending on the refresh rate that the output is set to. We support mpeg2 program streams, or mpeg2 transport streams. I can convert your elementary streams to transport streams and that will fix the doublespeed you sometimes see.
  
  
  
  If you take a look at the video quality technote, Dtrump is correct that the video output setting can affect the quality of the content played. This is covered in great detail in the technote. If you let the brightsign automatically set the video mode, there's no way to tell what mode is being used. The brightsign queries the display, and tries to use the setting the display replies with, but if the display doesn't respond, then it'll default to 1024x768x75p.
  
  
  
  The brightsign scales up better than down. This is also covered in the technote. So, I wouldn't use a 720p video that's going to be scaled down to 1024 or down to 800x600.
  
  
  
  We can try setting your units to 640x480 @ 60 - 640x480x60p.
  
  
  
  Transport streams (.ts) and program streams (.mpg) works equally well for standard video. There is hardware acceleration for transport streams so they open and run more efficiently. This normally comes into play with HD content, and when you're synchronizing.
  
  
  
  There is going to be a freeze frame at the end when looping using playlists. If you're looping with a script, you can set the unit to turn on loopmode, where you get the seamless looping, when using videos with no audio.
  
  
  
  Also, since these are just standard videos, there's no point that I've ever seen encoding them above 10Mbps. If they were HD then yes, but you can limit your bitrate to 10Mbps max for standard content.
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 21, 2010 10:15

  
  
  Hi, DTrump.  Thanks so much for sharing this information with me.  Your VGA speed variations conforms to my experience.  Lyndon explains the speed variations: I thought, wrongly, that projects without sound should be exported without sound, hence the elementary streams.
  
  
  
  Lyndon: I'm working with FCP Academic 6.0.6 and Compressor Academic 3.0.5;
  
  
  
  Lyndon: Video without audio means a tranport stream that encodes an empty audio track and not an elementary stream that lacks an audio track.  Right?
  
  
  
  Lyndon: Apple Compressor won't let me encode 640x480x60.  Just 640x480x29.97 and lower frame rates.  Is there another Mac compressor that could do it?  I have MPEG Streamclip but don't see options for creating transport streams.
  
  
  
  Finally, Richard, my friend from Australia, suggests that there's trouble with the Sanyo and VGA: he wants me to either a., acquire an HD1010 with component video out; or b. find a VGA to component adapter.  This is likely very good advice, but I of course want my VGA to work.  And my Sanyo doesn't have component in, just composite and S-video.  Sigh.
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  RokuLyndon January 21, 2010 13:26

  
  
  Hi,
  
  
  
  Transport streams can have audio. But, for your encoder, you might have to add a silent audio layer to get it to export a transport stream.
  
  
  
  For the video, you can try 640x480 at 29.97 or 640x480 at 30. Both should display properly with the brightsign set to 640x480x60p.
  
• 0
  
  Dick Trump January 22, 2010 04:01

  
  
  John
  
  
  
  I have a suggestion for you.  I have now played around with my Eiki projector that is the closest equivalent to your PLC-XU48 and I think I now see what you were seeing.  There is a strobing effect that the most severe amount comes and goes, but always is there.  My best guess is that it just doesn't have the internal processing power to deal with the 75Hz refresh rate.  BTW, I had the best luck with the one full MPEG2-ts file, your #4.
  
  
  
  I tried a number of different resolution and refresh rates and found that 640x480x60p did not strobe but resolution was definitely inferior.  When I went to 720x480x60p, it was smooth but the color was wrong, green instead of white.  My Eiki has 2 RGBHV 15 pin connectors and when I moved to the 2nd input which is shared with component mode, it was just fine.  I looked at the specs on the two Sanyo models you have and both support component, but apparently only on the 15 pin.
  
  
  
  That's good, because when I set the Brightsign (I have a 1010) to a resolution that is only supported in component mode, it sends the signal to both the RCA connectors and the 15 pin simultaneously.  I don't know which model you have but I would guess it will output component over the 15 pin just like the HD1010 even though it doesn't have the component connectors.  I could be wrong, but it is worth a try.
  
  
  
  What I have yet to do for my own satisfaction is to pull out one of our higher end Eiki projectors that should have more processing to see if it handles the 75 Hz refresh any better.
  
  
  
  Dick
  
• 0
  
  jmuse January 22, 2010 04:41

  
  
  Hi, DTrump.  Thanks so much for this.  I'll give it a try and get back to you.  But let me see if I understand what worked:
  
  
  
  create 720x480x60p (which I'm not sure I can do; Compressor won't let me do 60p, just 29.97) and plug inthe VGA to the "computer in 1 / component in" slot.
  
  
  
  Any suggestion on how to create 720x480x60p?
  
  
  
  j
  
• 0
  
  Dick Trump January 22, 2010 05:30

  
  
  

  Any suggestion on how to create 720x480x60p?

  I don't think you necessarily need to.  I was using your file named textcrawl.4.ts, using VIDEOMODE 720x480x60p, VIEWMODE 0 and the filename in Autoplay.bsp. I thought that gave me decent results, at least far better than when running in one of the VGA modes.
  
  
  
  It may be worth your while trying to re-encode 480p (which would be the 29.97) just in case that plays more smoothly than the file I tested.
  
  
  
  Dick
  
• 0
  
  sportalrocks February 02, 2010 05:04

  
  
  Had the same problem with Roku HD 410 and a Sanyo PLC-WXE45.
  
  
  
  Followed these instructions from above:
  
  
  
  "Ok, then you need to use the old playlist format. Create a text file using textEdit on your mac, and name autoplay.bsp. Please make sure text edit is set to save as plain text. You can do this under the preferences pane. SEt it to plain text, windows latin 1.
  
  
  
  In your autoplay.bsp file please add, you can list each file you want to play on a separate line and you can list the video mode in this manner:
  
  
  
  videomode 1024x768x75p"
  
  
  
  Input:
  
  VGA -> VGA
  
  
  
  My original file:
  
  Full HD  25fps.  
  
  MPEG2 with file extension mpeg had to rename with file extension mpg.
  
  Save as plain text (preferences) with extension bsp not txt
  
  
  
  Text looks like this:
  
  videomode 1024x768x75p
  
  video1.mpg
  
  video2.mpg
  
  video3.mpg
  
  
  
  good luck!
  
• 0
  
  jmuse February 02, 2010 05:23

  
  
  Hi, sportalrocks, Dick, and Lyndon.  I've been out of the loop (no pun intended) for over a week now because, well, the show had to go on and up.  Here are some installation picts and vids of the 4 BrightSign driven video channels, one with synch via Michael Callahan at Museum Technologies:
  
  
  
  <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.finleymuse.com/2010/01/installation-shots/">http://www.finleymuse.com/2010/01/installation-shots/</a><!-- m -->
  
  
  
  particularly: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.finleymuse.com/wp-content/uploads/videos/AldrichInstall.EnterAndStay.mp4">http://www.finleymuse.com/wp-content/up ... ndStay.mp4</a><!-- m -->
  
  
  
  I settled for an imperfect result, but only because I had bigger worries: the Lacie D2 with all of my FCP projects and media crashed.  Fortunately the "art" was off of it.  If the folks at DriveSavers can pull the right stuff off, then I'll make a few more attempts to clean up the output.
  
  
  
  Thanks to everyone for your help.